Stop Fearing AI: Why “Human Innovation” Is The Only Skill That Matters in 2030

Last updated on December 2, 2025

Remember the early days of the internet? Unless you were a total geek (and I say that with love), you probably felt like “roadkill on the information superhighway.” We are seeing that exact same fear today. Everyone is terrified that if they don’t become a prompt engineer overnight, they are obsolete.

But after sitting down with Steven J. Manning—a business leader who has built Billion-dollar businesses—and transformation expert Katz Kiely, I realized we have it all wrong. The narrative that “robots are coming for your job” is lazy. In fact, the most successful companies aren’t looking for more code; they are desperate for more humanity.

If you are worried about the future, take a breath. As Steve put it perfectly in this episode: “But for people, business would be a snap.” The future isn’t about who can write the best algorithm; it’s about who can get messy, tribal, emotional humans to actually work together. That is Human Innovation.

Ex-IBM Futurist yours truly Nat Schooler hosted a powerhouse roundtable with Katz Kiely (20+ years transformation expert, TEDx/SXSW speaker, UN/BBC/GSK advisor) and Steven J Manning (billion-dollar business builder) to decode the costliest 50 ai implementation failures in history.

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The 3 Ways to Future-Proof Your Career Against AI

We often overcomplicate leadership. We think it’s about having a “halo over our head” and visionary thinking. But Steve and Catz stripped it down to the studs. Here is how you survive and thrive in the AI era.

1. Adopt the “Walmart Standard” (Retrain, Don’t Replace)

There is a pervasive myth that AI efficiency equals mass layoffs. Steve shared an incredible insight from Dave McMillan at Walmart. With 2.2 million employees, Walmart isn’t planning to cut staff to save money on AI. Instead, they are training their workforce to use it. Why? Because 2.2 million people innovating from the bottom up is infinitely more powerful than a piece of software. If the world’s largest retailer is betting on people, you should too.

2. Don’t Hide Behind “Sophisticated” Bots

Steve told a painful story about an executive who used Gemini (Google’s AI) to write a two-page letter to a supplier about a major issue. He was so proud of the “sophisticated output.” But here is the reality: It failed. A simple phone call saying, “Hey, we have a problem, can you come in Monday?” would have fixed it instantly. Don’t let AI strip your professional relationships of the one thing that makes them work: direct human connection.

3. Hack the “Tribal Brain” with Opportunity Teams

Catz dropped a behavioral science bomb: We are biologically hardwired to be tribal. We love our immediate team and instinctively distrust other departments. To fix this, you have to force collision. Create “Opportunity Teams” where you mix levels—put a Senior VP in a group led by a junior operations manager. It breaks the ego, smashes the silo, and creates the kind of engagement that no AI can replicate.

Key Insights & Timestamps

(00:00) – Why 95% of AI pilots fail (Hint: It’s not the code).

(24:12) – Why modern leaders must be exceptional managers, not just visionaries.

(27:30) – The Apple Lesson: Steve Jobs’ brutal but effective meeting strategy.

(29:15) – Opportunity Teams: How to make a Senior VP report to a junior staffer (and love it).

(31:30) – The Gemini Fail: When “sophisticated” AI writing kills a business relationship.

(32:24) – The Walmart Promise: Why 2.2 million employees are safer than they think.

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Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

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Full Episode Transcript

(Transcript)

Nat Schooler: We’re here to talk about billion-dollar insights on why AI fails and human innovation wins. And I’m I’m really pleased to be joined by Catz Keley, a 20-year transformation pioneer who has driven large-scale change for the UN, the BBC, and GSK to name a few. And I’m also joined by Stephen J. Manning, uh, who built a billion dollar marketing business.

Full Episode Transcript

Nat Schooler:
How is leadership catch your point different today than it was yesterday?

Steven J Manning:
And what it must be I mean it’s just a topline idea is that you know the old the leaders have the vision they have the foresight they’re there you present they they they’re soussayers and this is what I think now you guys go and do this you guys execute. Okay now there are a couple fundamental issues. My my question often and I have clients who look at me a little bit bewildered. Uh the only successful leader today is the leader that also has exceptional management skills. You need to know how the darn thing actually works, what it’s supposed to do, why does it do it, and then you can control the environment and you can track the progress of the company.

Otherwise, you’re sitting isolated with a halo over your head listening to Ravi Shankar playing this playing music you’re not leading the enterprise and by the way very critical that if you’re not involved with the motor parts of the enterprise you’re not developing leaders you’re developing people who follow you because you have the checkbook you have dictim you you you lead by you lead by threat you lead by by money. Uh if you’re totally let’s say a fair leader uh you wake up all morning and find out the buildings are no longer there. So, it’s about people.

Now, there are a couple, you know, uh top-down failures. Uh I had the opportunity, you’ll forgive me, to say to a reasonably sized company at some point after two days of mindbending discussions. I said, I have a question. Hold on. Uh what is it you do here? You make cars. What do you do here? And then I got some of the most amazing responses. Katz blew my mind. I’m not smart enough to digest it. But I ultimately I said, uh, no. Uh, do you you think this is something of a scientific experiment? That is the failure of AI. You think this is scientific experiment? Well, I said, no, I think the reason we’re here is because we’re here to make money. And now in context of what bringing people into the enterprise. Uh, but for people, business would be a snap. So, you if you don’t figure out how to manage people, it’s a it’s a it’s a loser.

Um, I remember I had some insight into Apple. And, you know, Steve Jobs, whatever the heck else he might have been, pretty smart guy. Uh, okay. We’re going to change the box. We’re going to do something iPhone, whatever. And he would bring in everybody on earth into that meeting and he pronounced everybody speak and everybody spoke up or else you’re not going to get invited again. And then we do what Steve wants anyway. Uh the good part is that I was part of the design team uh in in my little world.

Somebody very smart enlightened me to one of the issues we had which is we had That’s truly vertical business. When everyone did that and that that that we just looked at it and we just kept doing what we did, which is did more of it and hopefully better and more and better. And pretty soon the biggest issue was a people issue, which is, oh heck, my boss is three years older than me, is making so much money. Where am I going? Uh, look, I look good. I want to get my bonus, but and then his boss is only years old where where is he going where am I going and in terms of leadership in terms of be bringing people into where they take uh they take ownership of the thing.

So very smart guy uh I think we got him from u from heights why don’t we create opportunity teams? I’m a simple guy what do you mean okay so we take a third level management person in operations. We take a senior VP of merchandising and we take a VP in operations and we put them together and say we are having a creative issue over there and they and by the way you the lowest person on in the project you run the team and here’s the goal. You will take two week two days out of your week to run this. Wait a minute. I have a job now. How am I going to I’m going to be the boss of the senior VP of this and the VP of that working on that. Those going to throw me out of the building. No, they’re not. If they want the bonus. I have never in my I’ve never as a career as a as a leader, if you will, have experienced that level of excitement. Those people bought into the whole notion that they need to fix that creative problem because that’s how we make more money. And it’s astounding thing when people decline meetings. I’m busy.

I’m doing my my thing with the other guys say what uh it’s astounding it’s it’s leading people to lead and to buying in a whole water cooler thing water cooler hell you know I found out that half my half my management team was out to lunch two three times a week I couldn’t reach them they were meeting they’re excited they’re important.

Uh AI scares the heck out of most people and most people think it’s Listen uh it’s it’s astounding to me when a guy in really well runs it for an organization. They do about a half billion a year. He showed me the wonderful letter he wrote to with the help of Gemini to one of their biggest suppliers. They are the biggest client for that supplier and they’re really annoyed because there’s something’s missing. Fix it. And he wrote this two-page letter outlining this and he showed it to me with a great old pride. I said, “Seriously, You’re the biggest client. It’s worth several million dollars a year to them. What are you doing? What do you mean? AI. Look at this. Great. I said, maybe you pick up the phone and say, “Hey, Steve, things are not going well. Can you come in Monday? I have three issues. Let’s talk about them. See you. Bye.” Well, you can put that on a little email. You know, you think that will work. Yeah, but that’s not what is it not? It’s not sophisticated AI output. What exactly are you trying to do? Get it fixed and shave two two and cents off a unit. Okay. Uh but hey, listen. Uh you can’t get in front of that locomotive.

But I am pleased to recount Dave McMillan who runs Walmart. He has 2.2 million employees who said we are not going to lose any employees on account of AI. Not going to happen. We three years from now we’ll have this 2.2 million people or will grow and they’ll be the same people and they’re not going to lose they’re not going to lose their job. Nope. No. In fact, I just made a deal. He said, quote, I made a deal with Altman and they’re coming in and there’s a bunch of people going to train on AI to do better and then we’ll tell 2.2 million people, you want to learn how to use AI, sign up.”

Nat Schooler:
Very cool. How about we can all go to sleep because we’re not going to lose our jobs. There’s 2.2 million Walmart people. Just imagine Imagine that though. 2.2 million people in innovation from the bottom of the business. Yeah. It’s like it’s just a it’s a real gamechanger. But but but even even with these inspirational sort of stories, right? Thank you, Steve. I knew you had masses of value there. I was just one I was just thinking what what is Steve going to say here? And I couldn’t I have no idea.

Steven J Manning:
Well, sometimes I really have no idea. Nor did Steve had any idea what he was going to say. Well, it’s to be honest, you shared you always share massive value or I wouldn’t I wouldn’t uh I wouldn’t invite you to talk otherwise you know I I honestly and and I’m not trying to be uh u anything other than honest I get to learn from people like Katz same uh once I start listening to you and I start reading you I learn from that and my job if you will is to try to put that in perspective things I have seen or known because I will never have the I will never have theoretical wherewithal that you have never I will never become a a a good beginner at that. So I this this gives me a tremendous opportunity to learn and I en I thank you and that’s I enjoyed that immensely.

Nat Schooler:
Yeah and and likewise I I that’s that’s one of the reasons that I started podcasting was because I wanted to just ask all the dumb questions that I really didn’t know the answers to. And I’m and I’m I’m getting better at not knowing. I mean getting better at knowing the answers now, but it’s uh great. Sorry, Katz. You you you were saying not at all.

Katz Kiely:
Um sorry, I’m ADHD, so I have a habit of just saying whatever’s on my mind and blurting. I apologize now.

Nat Schooler:
Me, too. Save me from myself. Please do.

Katz Kiely:
No, but but back to your point about this um creating these sort of cross- sector working groups and the impact that that had. I think one of my biggest aha moments with behavioral science and understanding the way the brain works is that we are we are tribal. What does that mean? That means that when we are with people who talk like us, who walk like us, who dress like us, who think like us, we produce neurochemicals that make us feel protective of those people. That’s why the counter side of that, which I think is a massive point that every leader needs to think about all of the time, is that that very very same neurochemical that makes you feel bonded to your tribe, your team, your department, whatever, also makes you behave in a defensively aggressive way to people who aren’t in your team.

So, if you think about what that means in an enterprise where there’s teams and departments and regions, one of the things I found work really well in in my work is to bring people together in these working groups but really spend time allowing them to get to know each other, to look each other in the eye, to feel each other, to get each other as human beings, but make sure they’re from all over the lots of different parts of the kind of organizational structure. Um, and then once you’ve got people to really get to know each other and trust each other, then you can start to co-create north star.

And, and I I would disagree with you, Steven, that just making money is just is not enough. It’s not what gets us out of bed in the morning. It’s It’s it’s it’s who we’re with. It’s who how we’re working. It’s it’s what output we’re making, whatever that is, whether it’s making the best car or whatever. Um, but you bring them into bring them into workshops. Uh, get them to really trust each other. Get them to co-create their north star so that everybody can see the same truth. And when they feel trusting enough, then they can surface and prioritize the blockers, the barriers, the behaviors that are getting in the way of that. And then, and this is the big then, they can start to co-create the solutions to those little things that they’ve identified themselves. And that’s great because then they can go away and put those solutions into action and they can uh learn from that and bring those back. But the most important thing actually is it’s the process itself because during that time of bringing these people from different parts of the organization, different levels, different departments, they become a mini tribe. So people don’t have that push, you know, oh don’t like it because I didn’t make it. You’re wrong because you’re not one of us. And it’s physiological physiological.

Steven J Manning:
Katz, I I to digress a moment. I’m not going to disagree with you, but that’s a snippet. Uh we’re here to make money. Uh the resident for the business is to generate profits. Without profits, altruism is not possible. Our profits, we can’t feed families and all of that. So, I look at that just a fundamental idea. That said, yes, uh it’s without people there’s just nothing. It just doesn’t work. And there’s a lot of components, a lot of components to that picnic. You know, you can’t be if you are absolutely mercenary, uh cutthroat mercenary that only works when you have a business that’s in imminent danger failing where you can say I need to I can save 200 families at the expense of a hundred. Dent is just straight line ordinary. Uh I can’t I I I I’ve known people in that world, you know, who who looked at it so cold that it was scary, you know, temperature drops in a room where these are a lot of workout people, you know.

Uh I knew one man who took over a $4 billion business that was two billion in the hole and two years later he had an extra billion and a half in the bank. And it when He started talk. The temperature dropped in the room. It was just so cold. By the way, I offered to work for him for absolutely free for a year for the privilege of attending his meetings. I’ll carry the bags. I’ll go to the cleaners. Whatever. As long as I can sit in a room because to watch that was was phenomenal. You know, you know, I there’s there’s no disagreement. No disagreement. It’s it’s it takes it without people you’re you know, where you going to grow a beard, move to Puvo and drink umbrella drinks? I thought about doing that actually, but it’s not going to happen now.

Nat Schooler:
Well, we actually one one of my my best friend my best friend at a partner for 35 years was shopping for a place to live there so we can is going to get really heavy and drink a lot of umbrella drinks.

Steven J Manning:
Problem is I don’t drink. So that plan fell apart because he wanted the drinking part. Uh no, it’s I I the whole notion the basic human need to belong. Uh it’s a big deal. Uh you know, need for food, shelter, need to belong. I mean, if they’re they’re more than those top three, I’m not aware of them. I get that. Uh we we try to run our businesses that way. Uh to, you know, it it’s it’s a wonderful thing when you pull into parking lot at a big event and a person says to, “Hey, Steve, park here so you don’t have to wait to get out.” Thank you. Do I know you? Yeah, I work for you. I work in that warehouse over there. And that’s okay. Now, we’ve done something right. We’ve done something right.

Uh that that happens to be the one of the crowning glories of my little career is to understand that relevance of our people and where they come from. And we we nurtured all we took people from kids to senior folks in the world, which is a good thing. Uh again one I think that one of the questions you asked Nathaniel what are the jobs if you will professions if you will that are going to be really really sought after uh uh uh skills sought after by 2030. You may not you may not believe this but I think that one of my three I’m not so sure if it’s two or three is human resources people. Now I don’t mean I mean that in a rather significant expansive way. Uh Katz will can talk about this for days I’m sure. I mean the people who will know who will either do it or counsel really solid leaders on the use on the benefits of the human resource. The most important resource we have it’s human. It’s not not money, it’s not capital, it’s not anything else, it’s human.

And as we go through this significant change for some cataclysmic where so much of what they do can be done by somebody else, oh heck, I don’t want my next X-ray read by the the guy I’ve known for 20 years who does it for a living. I want that AI bot to read my next X-ray. That’s just a fact of life. And there a lot of those examples, but I think the human resource uh profession will move into a role where he where those people will be able to understand and explain to us what is the absolute best relationship we can have with our people. Where do they live? What are the fears, needs, wants, desires? How does that how does that how does it there’s a confluence between their needs, fears, desires, wants and what we can offer and then we can that’s an interesting that’s interesting. Isn’t it?

Nat Schooler:
It leads it leads into uh the human innovation wins. I was going to ask another question, but I think you guys have kind of answered most of that anyway really to be fair. But so onto the human innovation wins, right? Um what can humans do that AI fundamentally cannot? I mean, we’ve talked a little bit about that, but what do you think uh on that one, Katz? And why Does it matter for for 2030 and and beyond?

Katz Kiely:
So um whatever you may think of where I think a report that came out from them said what’s going to be the most important things to for leaders to focus on and they are change readiness they are resilience. They are agility all of the things that we three all know. The faster change is the more the organization needs to be ready for that. Um, so the things that we we can do and it can’t do is as Steven just said, it’s the people piece. It is the connection between people. It is the storytelling so that people are not scared of the tech and the way we’re working. It’s the collaboration piece. All of those all of these things are social and they to me are the things every leader should be thinking about how can we and back to your point Nathaniel you know the idea that everybody in the organization is there to think I mean god when was Toyota thinking about we need to shift the way we work every single person needs to have making the organization better in their job titles that was in 1946 or something wasn’t it here we are and AI I mean you know so there’s a stat here um apparently MIT media labs in their latest report said that 95% of enterprise AI pilots have failed. They’ve got absolutely zero value.

So, let’s stop thinking so much about AI, the kind of, you know, the oo shiny thing, and let’s start thinking about what is it we’re trying to do as a company. And, you know, back to your point, Steven, I think who was it who said that a company’s only job is to win and keep customers and The only way you can win and keep customers is by making sure that your employee experience is absolutely topnotch because your employees are the interface with your customers. So yeah, I think if if it were me, I’d be focusing less on AI for AI’s sake and more about how can we use AI to make sure that we’re augmenting people so that we can do what we do best, which is connect, collaborate, create, um, together.

Steven J Manning:
You know, I I think that I think it’s it’s so critical what you said because again going back in time um at the very early onset of this internet thing, everyone I pretty much everybody I knew except the geeks and I say that with absolute love uh they had no clue what the hell we’re talking about and everyone thought they were roadkill on the superighway. I don’t get it. I don’t Oh, try explain a browser to your pediat your pediatrician uh in 1984. Say what uh now one of the problems today and as you said the shiny penny uh you know shiny penny and of course it takes it takes some maturity to recognize that everything is green on the other side until you get there you discover it’s astroturf.

Now how many people and this is something that uh uh that thought leaders like yourself will impact which is how do you take people which is pretty much well most of us from feeling you alluded to this feeling totally left out feeling this AI thing is just taking over the world and all I know is I can help get help writing a letter uh but then but then uh oh uh uh uh the the cleaners is talking about AI and I hey I’m a physician I still don’t know anything about it. How do you how do you say well here’s what AI is and here’s the utility of it and don’t make this an ongoing scientific experiment because you will fail. It’s not what you do. So how can you use this and how can you get how can you get all these smart people wrap their brains around how to use it? What is good? What is not good? What is use? What’s abuse? What’s a waste? of time.

The billions and billions of dollars of time are wasted today on people messing with AI at work. And I go back to not many years because remember data is king. Data is everything. Hey, we were in the big data world 40 years ago, 50 years ago. Now we didn’t call it big data, but we had big data. And I remember the great transition. Data is king. Data is everything. Now, a couple years a ago a couple real smart people said data is good uh as is chocolate ice cream now too much of that it’ll kill you chocolate ice cream will kill you now so they said so what is the uh Rubicon as to data because we are flooding the entire workforce with data I don’t care what you’re doing pushing the spreadsheet it there’s more data we There’s a lot of creative work that AI will do, but not the same thing.

Uh just one moment is when when some friends uh some friends showed me this young man is got a job in the insurance company. They do a lot of legal work. He’s a file clerk, a quintessential file clerk because they have paper. They have to have paper. Uh, courts like paper. So, they’re paper. You’re a file clerk. He’s creating a resume. So, what do you I’m a file clerk. I’m going to hire you because you’re a fire clerk. Okay. So, what’s the creative perspective on being a file clerk? And I said, you know, you need to understand that when you take that memo and put it the wrong place, misplace it, uh, that superior court just doesn’t care. You can’t find it. you’re toast. So, let’s look at it differently. As far as I’m concerned, you’re in document management and preservation. You’re not a file clerk. Just a creative perspective on the person who thinks they’re just a file clerk. And then when they do take that mount to the paper and put it where they’re supposed to put it, there’s a different degree of care understanding what the relevance of the job is. And I think that’s true whether you’re parking the car in a building or whether you’re lecturing to a Fortune 100. Uh you know, it’s I hope that we continue to nourish with all the great information that AI can provide the the brains of the people around us and encourage them to push for push to get some level of independent thought. 99% of people are not really going to ever have independent thoughts, but if they think they can, I think it’s massive. You know, that pushes you to greatness.

Nat Schooler:
It’s I think, you know, and and absolutely that’s I like that. I like that a lot. It’s uh it’s quite exciting. I’m excited about the future myself. I think that people as long as they carry on learning, continue to learn, and keep an open mind to the evolution of actually working alongside AI because they are most people apart from you know there there are many people that are not going to use AI and that have no need to and they are actually a lot safer at the moment but once the robots start coming um you know that’s going to be a different a different thing when they can start actually doing manual jobs and I don’t know how far we are away from that if I’m if I’m honest that’s something that is slightly concerning if I’m if I’m perfectly honest. But I’ve got three questions for you, Katz. Um, what’s the biggest misconception leaders have about change, especially when technology is involved?

Katz Kiely:
Oh, yeah. I think the the the greatest misconception is assuming you can just buy it and tell people to use it. It has never worked. It will never work. You either do change with people and take them with you on a journey to somewhere better. or they’ll just resist it or use it badly or give you bad data. 100%.

Nat Schooler:
So what does the change ready culture actually look like in practice?

Katz Kiely:
Then it looks like uh an environment where people are clear about what it is they’re supposed to be doing, where they’re responsible for it, where they are curious, where they’re rewarded and respected uh for for the for what they’re bringing to the table. where they understand what their part of the pie is about because otherwise we’re all just rolling around trying to figure out where we fit and and to the point. So I think the reward um the leaders are not there to say this way or the highway. The leaders are there to make sure that they the company is investing in a in a consistent intentional way to to build the environments in which humans are going to give their best where they will continuously look for better ways of doing things uh where they will continuously say talk about the things that aren’t working as you just said Steven change ready cultures are psychologically safe and they’re based on trust.

Nat Schooler:
And what’s one lesson you’ve learned from working across the UN BBC and GSK about what really makes transformation succeed.

Katz Kiely:
Well makes transformation succeed is always when people have a very clear idea of why that transformation is happening and they feel that they’re part of the change and they’re going on a journey which is going to be better for them.

Steven J Manning:
Excuse me. I want to give uh uh Katz I want to give you something of an ambivalent massive thank you uh because I am s shortly off to what I expect to be a very contentious hour and a half. Uh By definition, it will be contentious. And I just realized that I’m wasting my time because I will be useless because I will sit there listening to people drone on and I will be just grinding and processing everything you said about trust. So, I’m going to be sitting in a room with people and I’m going to have Katz in my head, in my ear, sitting over my shoulder. So, you know, uh my um I want to say thank you because it’s so enlightening for me.

Katz Kiely:
Yeah, I’m very black and white, you know, very proactive about things and it’s u sometimes sometimes we do forget the absolute need to build trust before people have buy in you know uh and I think that you highlighted that for for everybody watching or listening. My challenge to you is at the beginning of this meeting at the beginning of every meeting I have I say to each person if if it’s not a huge group what what’s making you happy? What’s making you sad? And they go and they’re always really delighted to answer and it takes a couple of minutes but the conversation after that because you’ve just broken the boundaries and you’ve created psychological safety are entirely different. So even in the most contentious difficult political moments give it a minute. That’s my challenge.

Steven J Manning:
Okay. My challenge of course my challenge is assume for moment that I go in and then somebody smart says so what makes you happy what makes you unhappy out of my mouth immediately being here with you is making me very unhappy how is that meeting going to go classic.

Nat Schooler:
I will I will try sorry if you are a leader who can see your team isn’t working together as well as it could or your technology transformation isn’t having the impact it should Katz has developed a human first toolkit and methodology that helps break through resistance and apathy. And you can find out more at her website we are beep.com or connect with her directly on LinkedIn. And I want to thank you uh for joining me both of you. Thank you very much Steve and thanks Katz.

Katz Kiely:
Thank you. Great great great talking with you.

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